Lords of Death Forums Lords of Death Forums LoD General Discussion Shits gettin real yo

Lol, now that you've stated your position, I feel like I was trolled. Essentially, your position boils down to the belief that every individual in a society has the right to forcibly resist the collective will of that society when they choose. The only limitation is that the person must feel "railroaded" or that an "injustice" has been done.

Initially, let's recall that you brought up this thread because you were appalled at the use of force by the police. But the very thing that is supposed to restrain police officers -- the law -- is what you claim an individual can ignore when they feel they've been railroaded/an injustice has been done. So you're complaining that the police aren't following the law, yet you openly advocate that ordinary citizens can break the law when they choose. But, somehow, the police are wrong when they do this and the citizen that breaks the law somehow becomes a patriot.

Your position itself is so absurd that only a cursory review is required to expose it's superficial nature. The "rule of law" is just a fancy way of saying that our laws, our legal structure, is designed to take competing interest and conflict and provide a forum where conflicts can be resolved peaceably. Phrases such as "due process" simply mean that the rules of have to be fair for everyone. But, a part of this, also means that when I get a court decision in my favor -- it must be respected.

By choosing to adopt a position where you can simply ignore a court order after you lose, you essentially infringe on other people's rights and simultaneously undermine one of the necessary components of a democracy (rule of law). Because each individual has the right to due process of law they are entitled to see their victories in court enforced. Obviously, society could not survive if each individual retained some sort to forcibly resist, or just ignore, the directives of that society. So yours is more of a selfish position -- although you say that everyone has the right to resist lawful orders, you don't really mean that.

What you really believe is that only people that think and believe as you do have the right to resist lawful orders. You complain that Cesar Fucking Chavez doesn't have the right to interfere with a court order deporting 100 illegal immigrants. You actually complain that it's a HORRIBLE! comparison. But it's not. Because as you've stated, every person has the right to resist a lawful court order. Cesar Fucking Chavez then has every right to block the deportation of those illegal aliens.

Your only retort is that illegal immigrants don't pay taxes (which is false, btw. They pay a great deal of taxes.) But even assuming that your statement was accurate, it is a distinction without a difference. You claimed that everyone has the right to resist a lawful court order. Individuals can only be deported after a court issues a lawful court order (many choose to self-deport without a court order however). But let's say you later restrict it to "citizens" only, wouldn't a U.S. citizen then have the right to block that bus until they release those illegal immigrants? If Jefe and Maria run across the border and spit out a kid, can't that kid block the bus in 20 years when they try and deport his parents? Yes, according to you. I could do the same. Change the example slightly.. you said that if someone tried to seize your guns, you'd refuse to turn them over. Let's say I've got 100 illegals in my house. When the cops knock on my door, I won't turn them over either.

Don't get caught up on the examples. They are too easy to identify. Get drilled by a drunk driver? I'm sure he's going to feel pretty "railroaded" when he has to pay for your medical. Thank God he can just say, "no." I only tried to imagine some scenario that would offend your political sensibilities.

And a pet peeve of mine is this new trend that you see within the TP movement, where these individuals have convinced themselves that they are the second coming of the "founding fathers." Comparing these hillbilly, white trash motherfuckers to men like Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, and John Adams is a fucking joke. Jesus Christ, are you going to take the TP elites of Palin and Cruz and compare them to Franklin, Jefferson, and Adams?

At the end of the day, there's nothing here to discuss. It's not a serious position.

Your response is so full of shit it's laughable Sonya, as it relates to things I've allegedly claimed or said. Let's examine the things you said I have said, but I did not. Find me anywhere in any post I've said any of these things:

1. only people that think and believe as you do have the right to resist lawful orders.

2. You complain that Cesar Fucking Chavez doesn't have the right to interfere with a court order deporting 100 illegal immigrants.

3. Every person has the right to resist a lawful court order.

Also, I didn't bring up this thread. Thread was started by someone else. Additionally, why have none of you bothered to address the obviously questionable things that have gone on here. You have all conveniently ignored the questionable actions by the BLM and haven't bothered to speak to any of that.

Your comparison of what Bundy has done and the police did fails at the most basic level because I never said the police did was illegal. If it was, we wouldn't be talking about this because they'd have been brought up on charges already (maybe). I said what they're doing wouldn't be okay for a normal citizen to do, so I don't see why it's okay for them to do it. That said, I do understand that they did not break the law. I simply think it's possible for the police to do their job without being overly aggressive and using force at the very first sign that someone else MIGHT use force, especially someone unarmed, something I've said several times now.

I think your analysis is also flawed at it's core because you keep bringing up due process. Correct me if I am wrong here, but there didn't have to be any laws passed for the BLM to decide to charge the guy extra fees for his cattle to grazed on land they'd previously grazed on for 100+ years for free. That's a luxury the BLM simply took upon themselves as part of their bureaucratic power. Where's the due process there? Did Bundy get to vote on whether or not those fees were okay? No, he was told this is how it's going to be. So he fought it in court and he lost. That part is due process yes, I agree. However, there is more to it than that, some of which I have already posted about. Here, go read these:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014...;utm_medium=RSS


http://www.wnd.com/2014/04/reid-smelling-anything-but-rosy-in-ranch-fight/

As I said Sonya, the entire ordeal stinks of dirty politics and fiscal mismanagement. I didn't say anyone who feels they've been railroaded has the right to resist a court order. A better summary of my position would be this: There are some extreme situations when those in power have questionable motives where it would be appropriate to resist a court order because the system has been abused by corrupt individuals.

Would you not also agree that political corruption robs people of their due process rights? Would you not agree that political corruption undermines the system?

Your comparisons, the immigrants and the getting drilled by a drunk driver are also laughable because they're nowhere close to what's gone on here. Neither of those scenarios involve the type of shady political shit going on in this situation. Let me be more specific.

In the immigrant situation, there have been written laws passed which say illegals cannot come into this country unless they do it through proper channels. There's no debate about this. This wasn't a decision made arbitrarily by some bureaucratic agency. It's written law. When immigrants get deported, there's no hint of scandal, as there is here. It's a black and white affair.

In the drunk driver situation, you're talking about someone (the driver) who has broken both written law (DUI statutes) and common law with his actions. Also, not hint of scandal and corruption there, it's a black and white affair.

There is a lot more to this back story than simply "some guy that didn't want to pay taxes". Will you stop pussy footing around this issue and attack it head on? What do you have to say about all the stuff I've posted about all the shady shit that's gone on in the backdrop with Reid? What about the BLM's abandonment of their glorious save the turtles campaign because "they don't have enough" money, despite raking in millions from leases and being able to send 200 agents on a mission.

Sonya, if I (and millions of other Americans) are so dead wrong in our views, why did the BLM release the cattle and pull out?

Also, do you disagree with me that illegal aliens are not guaranteed the same protections and rights as American citizens?

If you do not, can you please explain to me how comparing illegal immigrants to American citizens would ever be a good comparison when the issue at hand is an overreaching federal government?

Also, why do you keep dodging the limitation on the 1st amendment issue? Because you were wrong back when you first said that was okay?

You're just trying to score easy wins with lawyer tactics like misquoting me while simultaneously ignoring any issue where you cannot prove your point.

What I also find funny about your argument is that if everyone since the beginning of this country had subscribed to your line of thinking, the civil rights movement never would have taken place.

What I believe you are essentially saying is that every American citizen should follow the law and the decisions of courts without questions because to do otherwise infringes upon the rights of others. The status quo should never be challenged and people should simply comply with each and everything their government demands because it's right.

We got where we are today by the challenging the system and people standing up to the government when they believed its actions were wrong. Say what you will about the situation, but the government didn't back down at Waco. Yet they have backed down now, under the premise of "officer safety". This alone should speak volumes to you about what's going on because they didn't give a damn about officer safety at Waco. If the government is so godamn right and sure of what it's done, why is it backing down?

"The BLM's pure roots go back to the Land Ordinance of 1785 and the Northwest Ordinance of 1787."

Teriya and G-Fist, your reading comprehension needs a lot of work if you are looking to destroy my credibility.

Vermi- I've already told you why I think these people are nut jobs. If you need another fun fact here you go. Bundy and his family believe that the Native American Indians are actually Jewish people. They believe that Lucifer marked their skin for defying Jesus. Does that sound like the thoughts of a sane person?

The 15,999 other ranchers who use public lands and pay the grazing fee more then likely understand the ecological damage a herd of cattle can cause, and more importantly understand why they don't want to fuck with food chain.

Why should we foot the bill to clean his mess while he makes millions? Fuck him, his ranch, and his ignorant supporters.

Rok, I love you bro (no homo). You and Sonya both are some of my favorite guys in LoD. But I'm done responding to you in this thread until you start sourcing the shit you say and start actually respond to the questionable things I've pointed out. What you said was this:



This in now way tells me how you've made the determination that Bundy is somehow affiliated with this group or whatever group that believes Indians are Jews. How do you know this? Can you please point me to a credible source that confirms the things you are saying? How did you come by this information? Don't tell me to Google it. You came in here making claims, support them. I certainly supported what I said with links. I didn't tell you to go fact check me. If you want your points taken seriously, show me where you got your information.

Also, you just keep going back to not paying taxes like a broken record. Are you ever going to actually attempt to speak to the shady shit going on behind all of that, which I have brought up numerous times? You just keep ignoring it like it's going to go away if you do.

It's a red-herring. It is not something reserved for local governments, but the location of where it takes place is relevant. I'm not an authority on 1st amendment jurisprudence though. Ultimately though, it doesn't matter. First Amendment protects speech. Driving an ATV, blocking traffic, and then advancing on police officers is not "speech", and is not entitled to First Amendment protection.

The rest of your comments don't really require comment. The reason why I asked you to state your own position, in your own words, is because I didn't want to misquote you.



and...



and



What?

I provide the information but you do the research next time. This is forum war Vermi, there are no friends. Prepare to get ganked.

Militias, including the one in the video you posted, run under sovereign nation rules. This is such a common fact it's up to you to show me a militarized militia that does not fit that doctrine. These people are back woods assholes that have ties with White Power movements. Fuck them.

As far as the Indians are Jews theory, that's what Mormons believe. The FLDS are a sect of Mormons who live by the old school and they reject the Federal government while the LDS are more or less right wing capitalists. Bundy by definition is FLDS.

I don't support Militias, I don't support tax cheats and I don't support stupidity. Welcome to my America.

What credibility? You are like the worst troll of these forums, i used to get wasted and troll without even being conscious of it on here. Like in our PM's previously Rok, you don't take a real stance on anything and argue symantics and other pointless shit like a troll would. I dont even think you understand that you're trolling. I think you are a super dry humor liberal type with a shitty job that has a chip on your shoulder.

Whats with the anti-religious shit? Ive beat to hell a muslim friend of mine in debate multiple times, doesn't mean I think hes a piece of shit for believing in Allah. You are drawing conclusions and using a broad brush like an anti-Semite would.

Love how in PM's you told me that corporations are the real enemy but then here 100% support the governments position on this issue, like the government hasn't made a habit out of selling lands like these to private interests..lololol.

And the BLM's own website says it was created in 1946 so apparantly they are wrong. In "your america."

I've got no problem with civil disobedience. What these people did was not civil disobedience. You're trying to put a square peg in a round hole.