I already did articulate several positions. Were you not paying attention? Scroll back a few pages and go to the links I posted. I also went down the list citing the elements for self defense.
Also, your example above is FUCKING HORRIBLE because you've used the example of illegal aliens and tried to draw some non-existent apples to apples comparison between them and American citizens. Come again? American citizens pay the taxes that fund the BLM and all government agencies. Illegal aliens pay no taxes. American citizens are afforded certain rights and civil liberties that illegal aliens do not have because the laws of this land apply only to citizens of this land. I'm frankly shocked that an attorney would draw such a weak ass comparison as an example. You're smarter than that Sonya.
Let me articulate my points again since you seem to have missed them somehow, despite me spending quite a few words making them.
1. I think the guy has a right to be pissed off at the series of events that led up to this. You guys act like a court order is the holy fucking grail. Are you fucking serious? Precedents get reversed all the time. 100 years ago, women couldn't vote and black people were still segregated. That was all legal. Did that mean it was right? Just because a court order was issued doesn't make it right. Our legal system does not operate in a vaccuum. Things change. Judges make bad rulings all the time. Hell Sonya, you yourself criticized the recent reversal of the concealed carry decision. The next court may reverse it back. Do you think all this flip flopping on that decision has anything to do with politics, corporate interests, the NRA and the gun lobbyists? Hrmmm......The judiciary is not free from the pressures of corporate interests and politics. If you look at the facts behind the Bundy decisions, it seems pretty clear to me that there may be some serious political under currents going on here. I'll explain further in a second.
So I guess my point is, if an American citizen feels they were railroaded in a court decision, I don't think it's out of the question to do what these people have done, court order or not. They feel they are victims of injustice and they are taking a stand against it. I applaud their efforts. I don't think what they are doing is wrong. Is that point articulated well enough for you? Let me explain WHY I believe this.
The government has pulled some really shady shit with the whole situation with Bundy. Here, here's a link to a summary of the procedural history and timelines of the court cases:
http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2014/04/12/The-Saga-of-Bundy-RanchOkay, so the BLM instituted a tax allegedly for the purpose of preserving a desert tortoise, right? Scroll forward to August 2013, the 1 million a year grant the BLM was giving to Fish and Wildlife to protect the tortoises stops coming allegedly due to "budget cuts" and they euthanize the same tortoises.
http://www.times-standard.com/news/ci_23938764/even-desert-tortoise-has-deal-budget-cutseh? So, these guys can no longer afford to pay for the grant that saves these precious animals, the source of this entire dispute, but they have the money to send 200 plus agents out for how many days to seize cattle? Whether we agree on the particulars or not, it's pretty obvious that there's some serious fiscal mismanagement going on here by the BLM. It makes no logical sense to abandon their efforts to save the endangered animal because you're broke, but then waste who knows how much tax payer money on some cattle round up. Go read Rolo's post for a more precise argument on this. And what about all their "investigations" of the cattle. How much did this cost? If they couldn't afford to continue funding tortoise preservation last year, how can they afford this massive sting operation now? If any CEO ran a company like this, his company would be bankrupt.
Scroll forward to last month, the BLM sells leases to oil and gas companies on these same public lands to the tune of 1.2 million bucks.
http://m.shalereporter.com/industry/article_0de547ba-8ca4-11e2-ab4e-0019bb30f31a.htmlNow if this dispute has been going on for 20 years, why are they just now doing something about it? I mean the court process is slow dude, but it ain't that fucking slow. Go back and read the link to the procedural history. There were lapses of what, 10+ years between actions. Why? It doesn't take that fucking long to investigate something? Do you think the ramp up in the legal process had anything to do with these leases?
Also, the guy is pissed because his family entered into agreements long ago that were suddenly changed and his fees hiked up and cattle limited all under the flag of this precious tortoise, which the BLM later abandoned efforts to save.
All of this is conjecture at this point and hopefully as more investigative journalism is done on the background, we'll get more facts. It's all kinda murky at this point. Regardless, if you start to piece it all together, my simple point is that you can see how the guy would feel victimized and like he was a casualty of a larger government plan that didn't give 2 fucks about the fact that his family has been ranchers on the land for nearly 150 years.
Why was the bill of rights passed in the first place? To protect you from your own government. This guy feels like the government is overstepping his bounds and he is taking a stand against it. Why is this bad? Why does this make him a "tax evader" and a "hillbilly fuckface"? If the government passes a law banning firearms and they start coming around knocking on doors to collect them (this has happened), I will not give mine up, period. Would this make me a "hillbilly fuckface" because I refused to comply with a law I felt was contrary to the freedoms I am guaranteed?
2. I have brought this up twice now and you continue to dodge this point which I thought I articulated pretty well. Does the BLM, a federal agency, have the authority to send in their law enforcement agents and designate a specific area for free speech? Based on everything I read, I believe the answer is no. I think this is a right reserved for a local government. I don't think they have the authority to do that. Outside of a state of emergency, I think that is an overreach of the federal goverment's powers against state citizens. The Governor of Nevada was sure pretty pissed about this. If you don't have the time to look it up and see if they were in the wrong, I can try and do it on Monday when I have access to Westlaw.
I believe that anytime the federal government pushes back against constitutional freedoms, it should be a wake up call to all Americans.
3. I'm not going to argue the excessive force thing anymore. You claim I've articulate no position and I can't fathom how you think this. In my post to Anti, I went down the list of elements for self defense. I stated that I felt if that same scenario occurred between two civilians, the guy with the gun who sicked his 100 lb trained attack dog on the unarmed guy standing 4 feet from him yelling with his hands at his sides, and then tasered him would end up in cuffs. So subsequently, I fail to see how if this is not an okay reaction for civilians, it can be okay for law enforcement. What more do I really need to say on the issue man?
A badge should not be a license to be an aggressive fucking asshole. I think those cops went too far. I think they should have had the attitude going in to preserve peace while doing their job. You can say my examples of the traffic cops is bad but I already answered you on this. I said those cops were good examples of how you can do your job with a calm and level head in the face of angry people. Instead, the BLM came in like soldiers on a mission. Based on what's transpired Sonya, a pretty good portion of the American population obviously feels the same way. Why do you think the BLM pulled out and ended the standoff? Because they were looking like fucking dousche bags on TV tasering unarmed civilians and throwing women to the dirt. I'd imagine someone's ass got reamed for their behavior, which made national headlines and stirred up a hornets nest of angry citizens.
What more would you really like to argue on this point? We can't prove if your opinion or mine is correct on this issue, so I guess we can waste more time with WOT or just agree to disagree.
