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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 8
Super Newbie Flamer
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Super Newbie Flamer
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 8 |
wait but we are paying troops that in turn put money back into the american economy at home, and are helping manufacturers of american arms!! this is really a stimulus for the economy!! think of the future long term gains in oil production!
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Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 503
LoD Groupie
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LoD Groupie
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 503 |
That's pretty much what Keynesian economics are...
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 237
LoD DF Empire
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LoD DF Empire
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 237 |
was my argument.. to use an old term, pump-priming economics. Good policy. Though I have no problem with nay sayers, I do request that they either help solve the problems by bringing solutions to the table instead of complaints about a future we have no way of predicting accurately. a voice of reason: Quote:
Wow, you are really good at finding extremely biased and inaccurate numbers on both sides of your argument.
If the stimulus actually was $3.27 trillion we wouldn't have all this rising unemployment since that would easily fill the gap in lost production. Also, the war in iraq has cost us over a trillion dollars since the last time I saw a real number mid-last year.
The difference of course, is that spending money at home creates jobs and public works projects including long-term infrastructure enhancements, while blowing shit up overseas doesn't accomplish anything except creating a new generation to despise America so the cycle can be repeated.
Last part is especially true, if you look at US or European history from 1800's on, it's a cycle of state building by either force or economic subjugation that ends up creating an antagonized population that bites us in the ass later.
The short list.
The Shah - Iran
La Mumba - Congo
Chavez -(we tried to usurp a democ. elect with a mil. dicator.)
Israel -1950's to present
The Taliban - guess who trained and aided them.
Fidel Castro/Cuba
Sadam Hussein
Korea - that worked out well..
Short list without reference, so I'll wait to be trolled on it to back up my claims, but history shows a constant need of first world countries trying to control the world outside of their nation and pretty much having it blow up in their face every time.
A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.
Douglas Adams
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 18
LoD DF Empire
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LoD DF Empire
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 18 |
Quote:
Ahh well at least he isn't actually one of the special olympics competitors like your last President!
Amen
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Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 503
LoD Groupie
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LoD Groupie
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 503 |
Quote:
How strong your opinions are, on topics you clearly know little about, puts me in great awe.
You have no sense of humor anymore...I'm wondering if Obama's plumetting numbers are the cause.
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,890
Adept
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Adept
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,890 |
Quote:
Quote:
How strong your opinions are, on topics you clearly know little about, puts me in great awe.
You have no sense of humor anymore...I'm wondering if Obama's plumetting numbers are the cause.
seriously how could his popularity go anywhere but down. its even going down up here in the cold country.
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Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 503
LoD Groupie
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LoD Groupie
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 503 |
The pundits are saying the republicans are caving into Obama, y'know. I'd be curious to hear about which plans of his reek of the opposite.
Of course, a few rats are already leaving the ship on the blue side of the aisle. Is that what you meant?
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 3,301
Lord of Cluth Heals
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OP
Lord of Cluth Heals
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 3,301 |
Quote:
(1)The Geitner plan is the Paulson plan. (2)The stimulus is is too small and has too many unnecessary tax cuts and was still voted on party lines in the House but did gain three Republican Senators.
Geitner is a "Paulson-ite"....i believe the guy he picked to be his chief deputy was an ex-goldman guy too (i even think he worked for Thain)....id need to check...
those three senators are not "base" republicans...they are the republican version of "dixie-crats"....
I dont think the stimulus package was too "small", i just dont think it focused on the true needs of infrastructure and growth...
$1.5 billion for ACORN? What does that do? Nothing....(that wasnt a slam at the left driven organization, it was the first that came to mind)....what ever happened to addressing the 5 1950's era power grids that are about to fail? What about upgrading ports, highways, airports and infrastructure...
As a conservative libertarian and amateur economist, i have ZERO issues in using spending to get out of the mire we are in, but spend it wisely...no pet projects, no fluff stimulus...
the other funny thing i find so ironic, is the latest toxic waste pool that Geitner is driving...that was Paulson's orginal intention with the $700 billion TARP plan that got butchered and destroyed...
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 3,301
Lord of Cluth Heals
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OP
Lord of Cluth Heals
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 3,301 |
Quote:
Why are you passing on right-wing lies about ACORN? They didn't get ANY stimulous money. It is funny to see groups promoting voting as a rightwing boogieman though. Funny in the sad way of course.
As for the three Republican Senators, they are mainstream Republicans who were big supporters of Bush, they are just up for reelection and can't look like obstructionists like the rest of the Republican party. I certainly agree if your point is Obama gave away a lot for essentially zero Republican support in his attempt to be bipartisan.
Lastly, the stimulous is too small. The numbers were calculated based on average unemployment percents we already passed in February. That does not bode well. I certainly am with you on the spending priorities. The $288B spent on tax cuts could be better invested on infastructure. The problem is we still don't have a holistic energy plan and it hard to build out infastructure when you don't know where to run the lines. Fortunately, there was investment in renewables ($6b) and some investment in a smart energy grid ($11b) so I'd say your main complaints don't hold much water.
The main problem is still the total investment being too low for the economic numbers. But something is still better than nothing.
Let me correct myself....ACORN, in theory, "could" get funds from this stimulus package....my point is, why should ANY organization such as that (democratic, socialist, republican, libertarian, etc.) get access to stimulus funds...
we may disagree on a lot of issues, but i think you and I at the base agree on what and how much the stimulus bill should be and what it should include...
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 3,301
Lord of Cluth Heals
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OP
Lord of Cluth Heals
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 3,301 |
Quote:
As for the three Republican Senators, they are mainstream Republicans who were big supporters of Bush, they are just up for reelection and can't look like obstructionists like the rest of the Republican party.
Collins and Snowe are FAR from mainstream republicans...Spectre was a surprise...
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