Lords of Death Forums Lords of Death Forums LoD General Discussion PvP - A Serious Discussion

I concur with most of the above. Thank you for the post.

What's there to talk about? Real PvP is all but dead ppl need to wake up and realize it.

Freedom - Everyone should be able to play exactly the way they want... pvp or rp'ish or crafting or exploring or whatever. Dont make someone HAVE to kill monsters to compete in PvP. Players will ultimately create the best game while INSIDE the game, give them the freedom to do so.
Motivation - Everyone needs motivation to fight each other. Conflict and War is always the most exciting part of a PvP game but people still need reasons to do it. Stats Pages, Loot, Bragging rights, Trophies, and growing your own personal PvP skill are things that make people want to fight each other. There definitely needs to be an element to the game that gets the non-aggressive people out of their caves as well. Like getting the RP'ers away from questing and the crafters outa their safe towns for some PvP. If theres no one to fight because half the server doesnt want to fight... the game dies.
Finding Action - Now that you got people wanting to fight each other you need a way for them to find each other. Shadowbane was the WORST at this because you couldnt see enemies unless they were 10 feet in front of you(hell sometimes 10 feet behind you). You should be able to see other players at maximum distance even if its just a tiny pixil indicating movement. Half the battle in previous games was checking 12 different "hot spots" just to find action... it was a huge waste of time. Shadowbanes Mine fights were a good example of a kinda fix.
Realism - Games are getting more advanced and imo they are getting better because they are getting more real. WoW took a giant leap backward for the true PvP'ers. We want collision, we want bullet drop mechanics, weather, "pushing" other players, Flash bang spell effects like those in FPS games(savage 2 has a cool Mind Warp effect that blurs the screen). We want to feel like we are in the game and it is the most realistic but still fun experience out there. Darkfall is going to blow the doors off all games when it delivers on just this aspect alone. Hopefully future games take this and improve on it.
Guild Goals - Running around and killing for loot, fame, and stat pages is fun but their needs to be an overall objective for guilds to accomplish at the same time. Like getting 10,000 guild kills will allow you to build a better Guild House... or will give you 100 special tokens for PvP set weapons/armor. Or map specific objectives that guilds can constantly fight over. Their should be objectives for both the small elite type guild and the mega-zerg and they should both be able to claim bragging rights for accomplishments. For example, Its important here that the stat/kill web pages show not only the most kills but the most average kills per member etc.
Loot/Loss - If there is no fear or no penalty for dying it changes the way you PvP 100%. Its like playing laser tag vs paintball. Its gonna hurt so your not gonna charge out in the open and take one in the mouf. It should mean something to charge into an army and die for your guild... your giving up your loot, your stats, and hopefully a nice long run back. Getting right back into the action in 2 minutes defeats the whole purpose of death. This is the center of adrenaline in PvP in my opinion. The fear of losing of what you have and the excitment of taking someone elses ass at the same time. If theres no full loot theres no adrenaline in the game.
Thats would i could think of off the top of my head.

Thank you for the post! Sorry I missed this one. Let me answer in line.
?Dont make someone HAVE to kill monsters to compete in PvP.?
Exactly, I agree 100%.
?Everyone needs motivation to fight each other.?
We had some plans for this, however, I think I?ll make sure this gets boosted on ?importance? in the PvP department.
?Finding Action?
Remember that little action icon on the map in PlanetSide, if you played it. When it DID work correctly it was wonderful. Perhaps we?ll implement something like this? that works correctly?.
?You should be able to see other players at maximum distance even if its just a tiny pixil indicating movement.?
Eh, I liked shadowbane?s minimap thing, that way not only hackers had minimaps, lol. I?m sure our draw distance will be very far.
?Shadowbanes Mine fights were a good example of a kinda fix.?
Sorry I missed those, please explain the mechanic.
?WoW took a giant leap backward for the true PvP'ers.?
Agreed.
?We want collision..?
This is tricky to get right and very buggy. We are currently deciding on the ?Dice Roll Vs. Hit Detection? systems. This is a very hard thing to choose because of all of the pros and cons. I agree that hit detection, collision, is best, but to get it right (server-side un-hackable)AND to have the servers/client run smoothly, bug-less is very difficult. We may even test both systems and see which we like better then design from there, if time/money allows. We will see.
?Guild Goals?
Noted.
?Loot/Loss?
Again, I agree. UO?s loot system was pretty hardcore but shadowbane?s, if I remember correctly, was nicely balanced. I think you could only loot what was ?in your backpack?, like what you had looted then and maybe the gold on your person. This is a good balance I believe. You can lose stuff that may be valuable/loot stuff that may be valuable but you aren?t going to lose everything you?ve ever gained, which easily could happen in UO. Heh, I looted a many a tower/houses in the old school days, for instance?
Anyway, good write up! As we discussed in our IMs, Obs, we will not be a ?100% PvP game? but it takes first priority, then PvM, then ?MMO??.

I'd like to add a little to this point. Shadowbane worked because of the forums and the lack of moderation with in game tells. People forged their persona on the forums and the differences that developed because of it were settled in game. Everyone said that the forums wer almost a game unto itself. I know a couple of people that continued playing SB merely to exact revenge over a slight that happened on the forums months before. It ties in with the freedom aspect, if you allow players to provide their own content the game will run itself.
WoW screwed up in the fact they continually remove any sort of conflict. You can't talk to the opposite faction (even if you could I imagine it'd be very very moderated) and then they introduced cross realm BGs thereby removing any sort of "community" feel for your server. My first toon I leveled to 60 I kept track of people who camped me. When I hit 60 I went and got my revenge, multiple times. After BGs and the cross realm BGs theres only the honor to be had from the kill, nothing more.

So true, the forums were a big part of SB and so was communication. Not to mention exploiting unloyal players in other guilds.

While looting a tower might be unbalanced. at LEAST looting of everything I'm / they are carrying is an absolute must. If you have a sword, and you die, you lose it. Period. Else the game is boring and there is no risk in using your best gear which is part of what makes using your best gear fun.

The collision system in Assassin is really good... although it is a one player game...

You must take into account that collision MUST be done server side or expect hack city. If it's done client side, anyone could hack it so you always get "head shots" or w/e. So, imagine a 50 vs 50, 100 vs 100 battle with the server trying to calculate all those hit boxes...
We will probably try both systems to see which fits best.
We have a prototype pvp mechanic now... I can't talk about it... but.... it's the best of both worlds....
We'll see. :-)

Make a 2008 version of SB with oldschool UO loot rules and you will have the perfect game....better yet make a 2008 version of UO with SB city building/razing and you will be worshiped.