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Lord of Strife
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A little light on your claims of "truth"
You said that Kerry should have said.
"Said, and maintained that everyone was lied to in order to invade Iraq, and everyone was fooled including him."
and this
"Pointed out the claims "pre-war" and the "post-war" items like 15,000 tons of Vx which rumsfield pointed to exactly where they are on the map, and called the guys bluff."
You should read this.
http://www.factcheck.org/article.aspx?docID=222
"Made issue of Enron - Kenneth Lay and W's patsy patsy buddy buddy, let me stop that investigation issue."

Read this
http://www.factcheck.org/article.aspx?docID=182
and this
http://www.factcheck.org/article.aspx?docID=201
"Made issue of the California Blackouts due to criminal manipulation of the power system, and it's subsequent blocking of investigation by the whitehouse (major player Enron...see #3)."
If it were true Kerry would already be all over it. It simply is not. In fact Democrats in the Senate have stopped the first coherent Energy Bill from even being voted on and tried to use the Alaska Wildlife Refuge as a scapegoat. They have yet to reply with anything comprehensive yet continue to complain. If California hadn't been so left wing about building power plants and planned for their comsumption based on population growth they would not be in that boat either. That is what happens with supply and demand.
and finally this
"Made issue of the awarding non-compete contracts to Hallburton (against Govt regs, re: GST) that carried gargantuan profits, and the ties to Cheney."
http://www.factcheck.org/article.aspx?docID=201
Happy reading
Rahl

#164387 09/08/04 07:56 AM
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What are you talking about? What I said is what Kerry's testimony and people like him did that caused POW's to be tortured until the signed documents agreeing with the testimony is reason enough for me not to vote for Kerry. I don't dispute that he had a right to say what he said. I just think his exaggerations and dramatizations led to people getting tortured and added to the number of names on the Vietnam Memorial because it led the NVA and Vietcong to belive they could beat us at home by generating propaganda that our press was more than willing to toss out for the public discourse without actual facts included.

Mujahedeen #164388 09/08/04 08:10 AM
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Dude,
I am talking about America not the fucking crusades you ignorant bastard... The crusades in fact were a retaliation for the Muslims attacking Europe and the holy land. It was an effort to push them back out. You know the Moors. By the way Slavery is wrong and interesting enough the religion assumed by most slaves in this country is ... you got it Christianity. As far as how I feel, feelings have nothing to do with it. It is in our Declaration of Independence. Also a large part of the Federalist papers and notes from the drafting of the Bill of Rights. So my feelings really have little to do with it. It is actually history and fact. The founders of this country wanted religious freedom for it's citizens even though they were almost unanimously Christian. Don't try to give me morally relativistic arguments because you don't see any Muslim countries that are for freedom of religion or have it as a part of their Constitutions. America is special in large part because of this belief. Are we perfect? Hell no but we do more for more people for less in return than any "superpower" in the history of the world. Maybe it is time for alittle perspective. If America were truly Imperialistic there isn;t a fucking pissant country in the world that could stop us. Since most of the world are made of sheep it would probably stick for quite some time as well. We export freedom and do it without land grabs and resource grabs on other countries. France, Spain, England, Rome and every other "great society" has never been as benevolent as we are. Imagine if we weren't for a minute...

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Egads! I created a monster! Seriously though, I find it to be a very helpful site when people have conflicting versions of the "facts". It's not perfect but I think it pretty good.
So which are the issues that most concern you in an election outside of character? I was asking you but the drunk Canadian answered instead!

Last edited by tich; 09/08/04 01:40 PM.
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California could afford the power purchased from Arizona and other places, but they just kept raising the prices artificially, it's a regulated industry the prices shouldn't just go up with supply/demand.
If it was deregulated it would because private businesses have to stay profitable or go out of business. And then yes, Cali would be in a heap of shit, but the issue with energy buying is that there were no checks enforced with the price rising.
Now they got tapes of the conversations of them saying "We rape california and they just pay (laughter)".
If I get time later i'll find it.
I might vote for bush again if he calms down on his religious views.

[LoD]Rahl #164392 09/08/04 08:59 PM
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Quote:
Hell no but we do more for more people for less in return than any "superpower" in the history of the world.

Sounds just like the Brittish talking, how they helped poorer nations and wanted to HELP everyone around the world while ruling as a colonial power , and as I remember a few little states in North America went to war since they decided they wanted nothing to do with this great nice, peaceful and law abiding Christian Power ... then they formed the USA.


"Whats bred in the bone, cannot be bred out" - Robertson Davies
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You were left behind... America has never been Colonial off of our own continent. We do not rule other countries as a part of the American Empire. As far as I can remember the last time we did a land grab was against the Indians. We didn't colonize Germany, Japan, China, Mexico, France, Italy, The Philapeans (can't spell that one) Panama, Iraq, Afghanistan, Spain, Great Brittain or any other country we have been at war with. Spew you crap elsewhere it just makes you look ignorant...

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U.S. State Department Policy Planning Study #23, 1948:
?Our real task in the coming period is to devise a pattern of relationships which will permit us to maintain this position of disparity [U.S. military-economic supremacy]... To do so, we will have to dispense with all sentimentality and day-dreaming... We should cease to talk about vague and...unreal objectives such as human rights, the raising of the living standards, and democratization. The day is not far off when we are going to have to deal in straight power concepts. The less we are then hampered by idealistic slogans, the better.?
? George Kennan
Director of Policy Planning
U.S. State Department
1948
Well, since you say that America has not done any thing bad or taken over, what about killing the Chilean Leader and installing a lovely Dictator name Pinocet. Yes a democratic goverment taken over and over thrown. 10,000 or more killed. Thats like 3x the amount of 9/11. I don't see people in chile attack you.
What about Panama, since you mentioned it. The 2 US Panamania men they hand picked as leaders have been in power since the over throw of Marco there, and thats been 10 years. Also Panama is not allowed [ even thou it is a state ] to have its own Army anymore. The US will not allow it. I can see of course since the US built the canal why they want to protect their interests , which is the canal and owning the area.
Haiti ? The U.S. supported the Duvalier family dictatorship for 30 years, then opposed the reformist priest, Jean-Bertrand Aristide. How many died under that bastard. Yup freedom given there MY ASS ! With this as background, the Clinton White House found itself in the awkward position of having to pretend ? because of all their rhetoric about ?democracy? ? that they supported Aristide?s return to power in Haiti after he had been ousted in a 1991 military coup. After delaying his return for more than two years, Washington finally had its military restore Aristide to office, but only after obliging the priest to guarantee that he would not help the poor at the expense of the rich, and that he would stick closely to free-market economics.
Following the fall of the Somoza regime, which had been backed for decades by the U.S., the CIA formed and armed the covert army known as the ?Contras? from the remains of Somoza?s National Guard. Assisted by covert U.S. air power, this proxy army inflicted considerable death and destruction across the Nicaraguan countryside. From a talk by John Stockwell, 13-year veteran of the CIA and former U.S. Marine Corps major:
?Systematically, the Contras have been assassinating religious workers, teachers, health workers, elected officials, government administrators. Remember the ?Assassination Manual? that surfaced in 1984? It caused such a stir that President Reagan had to address it himself in the presidential debates with Walter Mondale. They use terror to traumatize society so that it cannot function.
Quote:
You were left behind... America has never been Colonial off of our own continent.
Really ?
Economically you control many countrys. I cannot name it but an African country that produces Cotton, the largest amount of cooton in the world has been almost bankrupted by US Cotton Farmers. How , why the US subsidies these farmers so that they can undercut the Cotton farmers around the world, bankrupting them, then buying the farmland up and reselling at a higher price. Fair game ecnomics. But Do you think this causes happy people or pissed off people.

Cuba , what has it ever done to the US really. It has a different Political system. yes its people are poor. But the US has invaded this country, place so many sansctions on it, shit the US has cause alot of pain for the people there. And all it does is go " NA NA NA NA" look at our good life, over throw your goverment. Yup, peace love there.
Fidel Castro came to power at the beginning of 1959. A U.S. National Security Council meeting of March 10, 1959 included on its agenda the feasibility of bringing ?another government to power in Cuba.? There followed 40 years of terrorist attacks, bombings, full-scale military invasion, sanctions, embargoes, isolation, assassinations...Cuba had carried out The Unforgivable Revolution, a very serious threat of setting a ?good example? in Latin America.
The saddest part of this is that the world will never know what kind of society Cuba could have produced if left alone, if not constantly under the gun and the threat of invasion, if allowed to relax its control at home. The idealism, the vision, the talent were all there. But we?ll never know. And that of course was the idea.
From Killing hope , yes a lefty loving book, but facts is facts.
Euro people, those evil people having a Civil war, just like the US had North vs Smouth, but not good for the Economy, and those pipelines and money to be made by allowing certain gruops power. Lets BOMB the balkans !!
Bad News ?The fact that some elements [of the U.S. government] may appear to be potentially ?out of control? can be beneficial to creating and reinforcing fears and doubts within the minds of an adversary?s decision makers...
?That the U.S. may become irrational and vindictive if its vital interests are attacked should be a part of the national persona we project to all adversaries... It hurts to portray ourselves as too fully rational and cool-headed...?
? U.S. Strategic Command
Essentials of Post-Cold War Deterrence
1995 (The U.S. Strategic Command, or STRATCOM, is the military entity responsible for formulating U.S. nuclear policy.)
Many the US has not like Brttian moved into India and such, but when a country does not do as the US asks , well look out. Just look at what happen to the States old friend Sadam. Nothing was wrong until he decided to invaded Kuwait. Remeber Kuwait not USA. Since then the US said, OK now your evil lets take you out.
Leave the rest for retort.


"Whats bred in the bone, cannot be bred out" - Robertson Davies
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Lord of Strife
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Is not wrong. Do you think the French and Germans are looking out for us? However we still do not move in and run our flag up poles and claim countries as the sovereign of the United States. Of course we defend our trade interests. Noone else would so we have to.
Duh <img src="/~stretch/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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